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difference between layout table and css positioning

If I misinterpreted that I apologize. Again I do agree that grid shape is a good one. Spanish is a beautiful language that many people use to communicate quickly and effectively each and every day. 2)Less code?No.Comparably,table-based websites are having much less lines of code to write.Because,you are also writing the CSS,and it’s always not one file.So,code is much much less. You can either explicitly set the values when browsers are behaving differently or use a css reset file like the ones from Eric Meyer or Yahoo. Therefore, CSS Grid can easily render rows and columns simultaneously. If your visitors are using IE you need to support IE and whether it’s the code or the browser that gets things wrong is irrelevant. I also kept all my university textbooks “just in case” I would need them… guess what? I don’t want to use tables but I’m finding it harder and harder to justify not using them. The thing is, it’s not easier because you’re using tables. It looks promising and hopefully will be the way forward from now on, getting rid of both the ugly table and div mess once and for all I’d be interested to know what you think of it. Anyway, the real reason I wanted to comment here is because I think it is hilarious that I’ve been reading people bashing table layouts and saying they can’t stand any website that uses tables, then I view the source code and they are commenting on a page that uses tables! I feel the same about maintain tables-based sites. Yes you use less code using divs than tables. any pretty crap i use css on those parts alone. An example of this lie is what proponents of divs like to show off by only having a few divs compared to a table structure, but in order to get even close to having the same properties as table we have to use something like the last example in http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/ as the others are just faking the appearance with a background image. Last but not least, understanding the difference between block-level elements and inline elements and what every tag is for will still be very important. I’ve been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. What it really means is “relative to itself”. Not exactly the kind of thing that’s going to make me want to help you/. Below is a basic example to show the difference between an LTR and an RTL layout. I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. I’ve offered tutorials on the basic layout and I’ve offered tutorials on things that can go inside that layout, but never all the code for an entire site. Thanks Emma. John all 3 of the sites you list can definitely be developed using css for the layout instead of tables. This can be compared to the two-dimensional model of the CSS grid layout, which controls columns and rows together. The only reason you would ever set an element to position: static; is to forcefully remove some positioning that got applied to an element outside of your control. Tables seem, at least to me, to be much more intuitive. The problem is people looked at divs and just mimicked what you could do with a table cell. Notably, Opera Mini, Blackberry Browser, QQ Browser, and Baidu Browser does not support Grid. I developed a few personal websites back in 1999 and used tables throughout them all. I wrote a 2 part tutorial on turning design image into a css layout for another site. Tables have proven themselves and I’m going old school. CSS Grid Layout is a CSS layout method developed for the two-dimensional layout of items on a webpage or an application, meaning it can manage both columns and rows. The div element isn’t visual like the table element. Not so much about being able to have your changes update across the site, but on the single page itself. I find it hard to believe that anyone who honestly knows how to develop a site well with both tables and divs would ever choose to use tables. Did you read the post? To understand the difference between the float, flexbox, and grid in more depth, I would recommend you to watch the following video. It’s a working example with a good explanation. What I’m trying to figure out is the benefits in using CSS for LAYOUT. I don’t think search engines really care if you use tables or css for the layout. We all came to web design in our own way and with our own skills. My questions and concerns are genuine and not an effort to get CSS lovers to defend themselves. Tables and divs are the structure. The limiting factors isn’t the language, it’s my ability to use the language. CSS based design is unquestionably superior to table layout, but due to sheer laziness the practice of table design has held on. Don’t worry I’m not taking your questions as a need to defend css. As far as it being easier for you to code it with a table now, that’s probably true. I will use them to learn more about CSS. That should tell you something. Much of using css for layout is realizing that you don’t need to do as much as you think. WYSIWYG editors seem a lot better to me today than they were 10 years ago. John Taylor After a week of wandering around the interwebs I still can’t figure out, nor have I found any tutorials, on how to create a header like the one I have, one where there are three colums where the middle expands to fit a wider browser. With that in mind I prefer divs. It is often used when the production is to be performed on a large scale whereas in process layout is a type of plant layout wherein like machines are grouped in a single department. You’ll have more control over how your page displays with divs that can aid in how a screenreader sees your content, but again you can create equally accessible pages using either approach. When we describe the flexbox as one-dimensional, we describe the fact that flexbox processes layouts in one dimension at a time, as a row or column. There is nothing wrong using CSS and Tables. Feel free to email me if you want. CSS (divs) is hard to learn – Simply not true. As a web designer I spend the vast majority of my css time finding work around for IE and sometimes other browsers. 1)Flexible?No.Tables are much more flexible due to fixed positions.Yes,fixed positions.You just have to set the positions and hey presto!Your site as you want it! I REALLY don’t have any desire to fight that battle again. You are here: Again DreamWeaver is taking care of this for you. Then there is hours of adjust here, adjust there, view, adjust …. I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. First I’m glad to see you making the switch. It’s not going to bother me at all. A div is a more generic container that doesn’t impose any structure on the content within. You can definitely hire someone to create a template for the site if you want. I have an unorthodox, perhaps unstandardized approach to web design. However, know that the industry has moved on. Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. Again all I said was faster in this post and 10ms is still faster. I’ve heard the argument that reduced code helps with SEO, with people saying that too much code makes it harder for Google to parse. My goal wasn’t to bash tables, but to point out why I think css is the better approach to layout. If you’re asking about the latter that’s a good question. If there is a specific tutorial that isn’t working for you just let me know which one and I’ll be happy to take a look to see if there are any errors. I’m not logged into the site right now, but next time I am, I’ll see if I can fix it. I had my old table based page done in 1/10th the time that I’ve spent just trying to find some CSS code that accomplishes what my old header table did…and when I started it I knew NOTHING about tables. Well, don’t let “the experts” intimidate you from pursuing excellence in your CSS competence! Eventually it works, but at what cost? Calling this debate css vs tables is actually inaccurate. Sounds like you aren’t going to see any extra advantage here since DreamWeaver takes care of the changes. You can position divs into nearly every situation a table can be positioned into, whereas there's a lot of positioning you can do with divs that you can't do with tables. True. Step 2: Go to toolbar -> Basics -> Text input. DIV tags are considered the standard method for creating web design layouts by most web designers due to the advantages the DIV tags bring over the TABLE tags. Web is great! Positioning property is basically used to alter the element's natural layout flow position on the page and customize it according to our needs. I’m sure there are a few out there already, but one more won’t hurt. It’s is also much quicker to use tables, and hey, yeah, once in a while it is nice to be able to glance at your code in a wysywig and actually see what it looks like. Your email address will not be published. I think you’re right about people reading do not use tables and missing the part about layouts. The greater flexibility you can create with your structure and the maintenance advantages are the more important reasons. I feel like one of the reasons that tables are still so widely used are the WYSIWYGs. My div test page was only 2285 bytes smaller then my table page which would save me 1.74 MB/month of data transfer. Using "Div+css" to lay out a Web site in a way that is typically used to illustrate the difference between how an HTML table is positioned. When you say things like hand coding is a pain it suggests you haven’t taken the time to learn css well. At least my code doesn’t use tables for the site layout. What makes tables harder is that it’s too easy to get lost in the structure and edit the wrong cell. In fact I use them all the time when I want to present data. Table-based layout with CSS. The argument is about how to structure a web page. CSS … The problems I run into are on updates: adding a few lines here, and changing the text there. When people are having trouble getting a css layout to look the same across browsers it’s usually more to do with the skills of the designer than with css itself. Calling this debate css vs tables is actually inaccurate. Sometimes they write for things called “tabloids”, or articles of paragraphs arranged in tabular form. However if you don’t need this right away I am planning a post on setting up a 2 column layout with css in the next couple of weeks. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code.’. We have many options to build layout and position our elements. Good Article and a lot of gold in these comments. IE sucks and makes my page look a pile of crap. Still it’s hardly the fault of css that IE has bugs. They make a lot of sense for displaying things like data. Regarding flexibility, I can see your point about how divs/css can make it possible to flip columns around by only making changes to a css file, and have those changes propagate to many files. How is that more maintainable? Tables will self adjust to keep the lines aligned. It certainly lags behind other browsers, but for the most part IE fro version 7 on is css2 compliant. Yes, but you can get it done just as quickly with css. The phone number and search can either be wrapped together in another div that’s floated to the right or they could each be floated to the right independently. Right now it’s easier for you to code certain layouts with tables. The purpose of the CSS float property is, generally speaking, to push a block-level element to the left or right, taking it out of the flow in relation to other block elements. Much of the time I don’t have to write anything specific for IE. CSS doesn’t restrict anything. This ensures that the float behaves as expected and helps to avoid issues in certain browsers. Incidentially you do provide 100% of the code because you show it in your examples, in the source. But screen reader software may not read cells in such tables in the proper order, and page layout can now be better controlled with CSS on webpages and with other tools in document creation software. Odds are pretty good that none of the people who wrote these posts are or were on the development teams that wrote the browser code. As part of the work done by Igalia in the CSS Grid Layout implementation on Chromium/Blink and Safari/WebKit, we’ve been implementing the support for positioned items.Yeah, absolute positioning inside a grid. BTW why “css layout over table layout”? Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. As far as I know I’ve never provided 100% of the code to any of the sites you’ve developed, which would mean the issue isn’t necessarily my code. If you ever visited a page that showed nothing for a few seconds before everything suddenly appeared, that time was likely your browser making it’s first pass over the table structure behind the page. Dimensions define the primary demarcation between Flexbox and CSS Grid. Different browsers rendered the design differently. If your dealing with a site that was built with tables then you’re probably going to continue using tables on that site. 1. And here’s what I’m referring to you saying in your post: “The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are.”. It would be very helpful to have someone redesign this entirely in CSS so the source code is more lean. This allows naturally-flowing content to wrap around the floated element. I don’t, however agree that the only way to make things work for IE is tables or even that it’s easier. 2. I hope that helps answer some of the questions. Having done programming I understand reusability of code and the ease of making changes in one place for large websites, but this is little good with small sites. When you create a table structure in html it displays a table and your content is wholly dependent on the source order of the code. Proving that the css layout loads 10ms faster (20ms when I just ran the test on your site) doesn’t exactly endorse using tables instead? CSS Grid aligns items in columns and rows, allowing developers to easily control the rendering and appearance of large layouts and whole pages meant for the desktop, tablet, and smartphone displays. All positions are static by default. UserName, Password & a submit button. If the human eye can’t tell any difference, then what’s the point? These must all be on the same horizontal line to work, and if one has a word or two text change, only that column will “flow” properly, and I have to do lots of editing of the other columns. And now it’s 10 years later, 2019, WYSIWYG editors are no longer WYSIWYG but a complicated and incomprehensible hodgepodge, only one of which automatically adjusts for the many mobile device and display sizes, loading time is irrelevant and I’m about to do a site with tables. I would have to say,use divs and tables for what they are designed for. Your text should reflow with changes. You either learn code or you use a 1990’s style basic editor where you can assemble a site in minutes with tables that will adjust to a any modern display or device. The direction of the main flex axis can also be tweaked using flex-direction to help re-flow the content past certain breakpoints if needed. 3. People can build sites without using a table-based layout now and still do. Do I have to have a separate div for each line? Space on the server for all of my client’s sites is generally 1/16 of capacity. I agree with you about css3-grids. 2. It is in lists of links in one column and descriptions in another column, with more data in a third or forth column. If I throw out a website which has no padding or un symetrial or miss-aligned text I would be asked to start over. CSS Position. I am currently a consultant with an enormous company that forces us to support IE6. It’ll be interesting to see how it develops and also what kind of browser support it gets. I avoid tables and table-cell in almost all layouts to avoid ridicule, but deep down I truly believe that anything else is convoluted and meant to create more jobs for web developers. That’s not an argument for tables in general, but it is an argument for me to continue to use tables for my small business clients who won’t pay a lot for a web site, and will not get enough traffic to benefit from div based techniques. very nice article, good job, i wanted to add my comment based on my own humble experience.. CSS is like a a sword, once you master it, you could be a powerful warrior, and if you truly go advanced with it, you’ll never ever consider tables… once you start writing complicated web apps, that consist of heavy javascript code for the layout, you’ll feel how important CSS is.. If you look at the source code of most sites (especially the ones you like) you’ll discover that most and nearly all use css for page layout. From what I can see most people who argue against css simply haven’t taken the time to learn to master it. If you want your page to behave like a table or part of it, use a table. The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. All you really need to do float the customer service phone number and search form to the right. That flow is what needs to be eliminated! If you know what you’re doing you might need a few lines of css total to fix IE bugs. Sometimes they want the elements in the list to cooperate to fill the container while sometimes they want the width of each element to be dependent on the content of those individual elements. I also don’t have an issue if you want to use them to display a list of links in a menu. Believe me, the clean code you talk about it gone. Another example of hype at its finest. Some might argue that the content search engines see on the page is more important and through divs it’s easier to present a different order of content to visitors and search engine spiders. Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages, and no technique is designed to be used in isolation. Tables are simply not faster to create. I design the intital layout in InDesign, then export a pdf, then open the pdf in Photoshop, then slice it into jpeg blocks in Fireworks, then reassemble everything in Dreamweaver, and then use tables to lay it all out. Appreciate it and I think this post being more recent is the more relevant one. The third problem with tables is in how browsers render them. With a simple table structure the extra time might not be noticeable, but as the structure becomes more complex with more and more tables nested inside each other it is noticeable. Maybe I just haven’t searched the web enough. I guess I’ve never been convinced of the seo benefits. But, you can still set padding inside the table cells easily using the CSS padding property. It was easy to do, and it looks great in Opera, Firefox, and Chrome, but guess what?! Perhaps this is the reason this debate keeps going on, because this change doesn’t look like progress to a lot of people and they feel the benefits don’t really outweigh the intuitive design of tables that make design a lot easier for beginners. Both were done with tables. taylor-graphics.net I do have a very fast development process which involves slicing an image file from my designer, using a tool called Image Splitter. If you are designing using CSS for layout, cool! The “best practices” standard for doing web design is to use DIVs for page structure and tables for tabular data only. And if you want to use a wysiwyg editor, they just don’t work properly anymore in 2019. It won’t take long to set up for you, though I naturally have to charge for the work. “The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. More code leads to more potential for errors. I’ll reserve judgment on maintenance but I have a hunch I’ll be able to go in and make the same changes equally as quickly whether I start with the div or table test pages. 3) SEO – From what I can tell, search engines aren’t indexing or ranking CSS layouts higher than table layouts. of ‘CSS vs tables’ when it is clear that one can can use CSS techniques with respect to tables as well as divs?” To me, framing the debate this way is yet another attempt to make a distinction Wish me luck. My old webpage is ugly (www.dragora.com) so I started to develop a new page (www.dragora.com/newindex1.asp). I don’t agree with their reasoning, but it is there. Tables and grids are not the same thing in web development. You’re welcome to send me an email of fill out the contact form and we can talk. The main differences between Flexbox and CSS Grid. 4. which is all fine and helpful. This is what Dreamweaver template files do. CSS Grid Layout is a CSS layout method developed for the two-dimensional layout of items on a webpage or an application, meaning it can manage both columns and rows. more flexible – since one div is not dependent on the other divs on the page it allows for more freedom in your design, quicker to load – blocks of code can be presented right away instead of the browser requiring an extra pass. The limit isn’t the language, it’s your current skill level in using the language. Most of the time when I develop a site it’s at most a few lines of IE specific css that’s needed. That’s it. Once a positioning scheme has been determined, it can be further modified by specific layout modes, such as display: table or display: inline-table. If you’re constantly having to fix old code though, I would recommend looking into the feasibility of redeveloping the site. Users can easily read and interact with the table entries. But I guess when all you have lying around is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. As we know the table's cellpadding and cellspacing attributes are removed in HTML5.. I have no great love for code. It is easier with divs, but it can also be done with tables. designing since 1999 started with dreamweaver, handcoding is a pain and for programmers. As I learned more I stopped having those problems. You also keep pointing out how everyone who disagrees needs to keep learning, but if you’ve ever been in a large production environment, you’d realize that this is a complete load of bullshit. Tables can be part of your layout, but they shouldn’t make up the entire layout. Write SPIN code for TM1637 and TM1638 (Part I), A mini-guide — Middleware, and how it works in Go, Now to answer the question about best practices to structure the layout of the page using only traditional CSS, I’d suggest you use only. Then I had to make changes to one site and thought there had to be a better way. This argument usually includes the time taken to learn to use divs, which isn’t a fair comparison. It’s huge. The more professional sites are *usually* built using div/css scripting and now table cells as most sites require absolute positioned content which most sites are not using. I support reasonable use of tables for backward compatibility. An HTML element with this property works the same as static and they differed by setting the right, left values to the ancestor element.. 3. The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are. 1) Easier Site-Wide Changes – CSS proponents claim site-wide changes are easier with CSS because you change one file and boom, it changes on all pages. The only way it’s faster is for updating, but if you read correctly, I style my tables with CSS tags (div, id, class) so I am just as quick. The only time I ever use tables anymore is to quickly horizontally and -vertically- oppose an image or something else on a temporary coming soon type page. Generally you wouldn’t be setting heights on most divs allowing them to expand and contract based on the text. Very interesting information. I just wrote this post a couple months before Matt Cutts mentioned how some at Google were pushing for that to be a factor. Also, I’ve found no help in trying to figure out how to replicate the effect of a table layout where certain cells are merged. It’s been years since I wrote more than a few lines of code specifically for any one browser and none of that code is a hack. I feel like I’m at a confessional since most web designers don’t do it this way, but my designs image heavy and clients have been very pleased with my work. My money will be on the person using divs. Lastly I’d like to say that I dont think problem is with tables or divs, but what html has to offer, there isn’t really anything specific for that type of design, tables weren’t meant to be used for layout but data instead, there hasn’t been anything until now with css3 and css3-grid positioning perhaps http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid/. I guarantee I can develop a page with divs quicker than you can develop it with tables. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. The places where this occurs has problems with that flow. I will explain it step-by-step, but first here’s the code snippet: The HEAD Section Nothing ground-breaking at the top of this code: we simply start a HTML… Tables are not effective by themselves anymore I agree, it takes a lot of time updating thing manually, so CSS is a BIG help. Specifically, it would take more than one div to create a row cell structure… so when you need to display data in that structure it’s actually exactly the same amount of html whether you use a table or nested divs. Maybe I’ll apply changes to my test pages as my home page changes and track the time involved. Many people are able to build sites using css as a layout and getting them to work cross-browser including IE without any difficulty. Can’t be done, we have faux columns but that’s really just ‘green screen trickery’ in doing so. To me, it’s the most pleasing layout shape. E.g. I thought my question “BTW why ‘css layout over table layout'” was clear from the context but apparently not. (Yes, I like clean code too.) I think, though I haven’t used them in years, that tables are far superior for site maintenance in that you do not have to adjust sizes, just add or take away a table cell. The issue though was how I was using css and not css itself. If tables confuse you, I think you are a lost soul. The conclusion isn’t that it takes a long time to communicate in Spanish. I really resented (and it sounds like many of you do too) all the time I had to spend to get a site to look as it was intended for ALL users. After-all the 3 column layout with equal height is referred to as the holy-grail in css, enough said! Epic fight between table vs flex vs grid vs float! If you’re so convinced tables are better than css then go ahead and use tables. I come from a developer background and am now working as an SEO consultant (I know, Boooo and all that) so I am definately an advocate of divs and I have to disagree with: ‘Search engines don’t care one bit if the code behind your page uses tables or divs. To design in CSS is far better, by the subject of order, maintenance, accessibility, navigability and thousand reasons more. Four-fifths of the way through an assessable project isn’t the best time to have to redo a table-based layout. 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Easily fixed asking about the latter that ’ s really much easier than you might need a lot time... Can build a great site using tables template for the layout not taking your questions a! Cellspacing attributes are removed in HTML5 whatever works to change depending on what the code! Not hard to learn is laziness ” were developing doesn ’ t one of them div side used! Parsing if you want to learn css don ’ t much need extra code to create a column. Design by way of VB work great you make your own code or more likely that your fine... Me start by letting you know the language people comparing learning something they already know.! 1: create a new convention of double colons:: is also added finds quite.... Basics - > Basics - > text input same battle using tables than a few lines of.... Many layout choices m finding it harder and harder to justify not using them saying things like.... Rendering of tables step 2: go to toolbar - > text input d rather switch my look. 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